They nailed everything I can think of from the price of .Mac to the absurd Mighty Mouse and a lot more. I just hope that SJ reads it.

they want some cheese with their whine.

Games? Meh. Not Apple's market.

Mouse? Meh. Many users LOVE the new Mighty Mouse. Personally, I can't use any mouse other than my special mouse to prevent carpal tunnel. (http://www.aerobicmouse.com/)

Support? Well, Apple still ranks number one in customer satisfaction. Regularly.

Their digs at Microsoft? Meh. Big deal. It's the nature of advertising. Coke and Pepsi have been doing it for years.

Hardware. Ok, the most legitimate criticism they have is here. There have been problems creeping in over the past 2 years. Probably because they have had to open up their control and let more and more 3rd party vendors create the parts just to stay cost effective. Who would have thought you could buy a Mac for $599?

Do they get everything right? NO. Do I have my beefs with them? About every other month. Do I get them resolved? Yep.

Do I go on whining about it?

Nah. I get back to work. My boss's two PCs have been down for 2 days now as our analyst tries to configure them to properly run new hardware. She's confounded because the drivers don't want to work with their own hardware.

All to do email, Word, and his calendar. Nothing magical. It's just Windows. And well, I don't do Windows.

Mighty Mouse, I use it and it works fine for me. Games, yes I think Apple should concentrate more on games as it is a very big market. Service, there number 1, can't get any better than that I'm afraid. Quality, there number 1 there too, even with some of the issues they've had with hardware. Hardware isn't as bad as you think considering they revamped there whole product line in less than a year. Yes they find other problems but do they fix them, Yes they do. So in hind sight they look like they have had a lot of issues but in reality there number 1 and I don't see them falling down any time.

I like the Mighty Mouse and us it as my primary mouse. I would love the Mighty Mouse if there was a better way to clean the ball, or nipple as Tech Deep Site calls it. I know how to clean it, but eventually I have take to it to a Genius Bar where they try to clean before giving me a new one. When surfing and snacking I use my old Logitech mouse, but working in a graphics program I use the Mighty Mouse. I would like to see some sort of track pad on the mouse, but that would probably be "over the top" (pun intended) for people used to traditional mice balls.

The Tech Deep Site article says you have to take your finger off of the "nipple" to right-click. I don' find it that way, I keep my right middle finger over the right button and click it that way. The left finger works the nipple and left button. Maybe they need to use it more, like anything it takes a while to get the hang of it.

The side buttons are too sensitive for me, I have them disabled. I will probably take my own advice and learn to hold the mouse so I don't accidently activating them.

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Tiger wrote:


Nah. I get back to work. My boss's two PCs have been down for 2 days now as our analyst tries to configure them to properly run new hardware. She's confounded because the drivers don't want to work with their own hardware.

All to do email, Word, and his calendar. Nothing magical. It's just Windows. And well, I don't do Windows.

Tell me about it. Big presentation to a client and we couldnt get the Sony VAIO laptop in the conference room to log it then see the network THEN find a USB flash drive THEN connect to the projector. . . I should have brought my trusty dual usb iBook. . . oh well. . .

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ireid2k wrote:

Tell me about it. Big presentation to a client and we couldnt get the Sony VAIO laptop in the conference room to log it then see the network THEN find a USB flash drive THEN connect to the projector. . . I should have brought my trusty dual usb iBook. . . oh well. . .

I had almost the same experience shortly after I got my Titanium PowerBook. The IT director (of all people!) was trying to get a sales director's HP laptop to see the projector for a presentation. When she installed the projector driver (?!?), it BSOD'd the HP. Twice. After 45 min, I offered up the TiBook, which connectected and presented the presentation within less than 1 minute. (This was the first time the TiBook had ever even launched PowerPoint, and the first time it had ever been connected to an external display of any kind. All without a restart, mind you!)

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Edison Carter wrote:
The Tech Deep Site article says you have to take your finger off of the "nipple" to right-click. I don' find it that way, I keep my right middle finger over the right button and click it that way. The left finger works the nipple and left button. Maybe they need to use it more, like anything it takes a while to get the hang of it.

Actually the gripe is having to take your left finger off the left side of the mouse (where the left "button" is) so that it registers as a left click, not a right click.

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pilky wrote:

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Edison Carter wrote:
The Tech Deep Site article says you have to take your finger off of the "nipple" to right-click. I don' find it that way, I keep my right middle finger over the right button and click it that way. The left finger works the nipple and left button. Maybe they need to use it more, like anything it takes a while to get the hang of it.

Actually the gripe is having to take your left finger off the left side of the mouse (where the left "button" is) so that it registers as a left click, not a right click.

Okay, I tried that and I can see their point. I l have earned to just lift the index finger slightly before right clicking.

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Edison Carter wrote:
Okay, I tried that and I can see their point. I l have earned to just lift the index finger slightly before right clicking.

And in that lies the RSI issue, along with the side-button clicking, which is diametrically opposed to ergonomic principles.

I don't dislike the Mighty Mouse but after a short while of using it in hope that I could replace the ugly MS mouse I use every day, the MM is hanging up as my spare mouse.

That's my issue... on one hand, the MacBook has almost as good a processor as the MacBook Pro. On the other, the integrated graphics are pushing me towards a Pro, though I like the design of the MacBook better.

I realize they need to differentiate them, but I'd rather have a lesser processor in the consumer machine and a decent graphics card.

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horvatic wrote:
there number 1, can't get any better than that I'm afraid. Quality, there number 1 there too,

I think you mean "they're", not "there". Regardless, being number one does NOT mean perfect. There is always room for improvement. Many companies have toppled from number 1 by resting when they got there.

dt is an awesome website. more should check it out

COMPLETELY missed a major point. They mention gaming and two button mice in addition to the existing Intel processors and Boot Camp / Parallels options for helping Windows users transition to OS X.

BUT WHAT ABOUT A TWO BUTTON LAPTOP?!?!?!?!?!

I work in prepress by day (actually a graveyard shift) in a shop with a dozen or so Macs and a few PCs. I'd estimate that no fewer than 1/4 of my clicks are with the right button, be it a Mighty Mouse or Logitech. When I find myself at a computer with a legacy Apple mouse all the years of rage at a company known for good design making such a retarded (literally, not colloquially) design come rushing back. It's not pretty.

I'm also a photographer by night (but really by day), and I spend a lot of time in Photoshop, InDesign and Finder. I find the right mouse button VERY helpful. The lack of a second button was one of the things that drove me away from Apple in the 90s. I preferred Corel Draw over Illustrator and the right-click is a fundamental part of editing in Draw. Requiring keyboard modifiers to accomplish it is just insane. I have many fingers that work ON BOTH HANDS, yet Jonathan Jobs seems to think that only one hand has independently functional digits.

The reinvent-the-wheel backwards logic of the Mighty Mouse has been discussed. No need to beat it further here. While I thoroughly appreciate that they finally "gave in" and produced a mostly functional mouse, the "no, that's not quite it" nature of the end result is disappointing at best.


Now, with both Windows and Linux users experimenting with Mac Books and Mac Books Pro (spend a few minutes on an average Linux forum, such as www.ubuntuforums.com, and catch a glimpse of how many really are making purchases of actual Macs), why are we still stuck with a single button on the laptop?


I have convinced numerous friends and family members to trust me and purchase Macs for their home use. So far no one has expressed the slightest regret. But the programmers and other serious computer users (gamers, for instance) still can't take it seriously as "the only computer you'll ever need" because the hardware that can NOT be replaced lacks a second button.

Here's a revolutionary idea: Give us two buttons. For all the holdouts who seem to think they can't possibly learn to live with two buttons -- that their lives will be drastically negatively impacted by the presence of a second button below the trackpad -- MAKE THE TWO BUTTONS PROGRAMMABLE as the same click. I can set all sorts of keyboard shortcuts and even the various button options for the dim-witted Mighty Mouse (which can't even click if I scroll far enough for it to encounter its own cable). Surely Apple can accomplish this great feat of engineering, rendering ALL Apple hardware as usable for the entire market.

"Just buy a 3rd party mouse" has never been a solution. Workarounds are not solutions. Not for desktops (why the hell should the user have to purchase two mice for one computer?), and definitely not for notebooks.


- Jon

Ñ—Que? Jonathon Jobs? Do you maybe, just maybe, just mean Steve Jobs?

<Checking Jonkun227's forehead for temperature>

Apple's laptops CAN use the two button principle - just program the trackpad to accept the two finger tap as a right click. Works great.

It isn't turned on by default, but once it is activated, it is fantastic. You can also use two fingers on the trackpad to scroll up, down or sideways in windows, app windows, etc., just as if it has a scroll ball.

Experiment, you'll find its great!

And I would like to ditto earlier remarks on the Mighty mouse and the wireless MM. (I call it a Tailless Mighty Mouse, or TMM) I use it as my primary mouse on both my DP 1 Gig g4 and my MacBook. I like it better than the regular MM, which is good, too. I'll admit it's not the most comfortable mouse ever, but the scroll ball makes up for it. The concept is fantastic! It sometimes seems a bit fragile, and the button function is activated too easily sometimes. But to be able to scroll 360 degrees? Priceless! Just make the ball a bit bigger, 25% maybe? and firm up the button function so it isn't so easily clicked (plus make it easy to remove to clean) and that'd make the scroll ball even better! And the accuracy and precision of the TMM is better than most other mice I've used, too.

In balance, the TMM is a really good mouse, and I prefer it to others I've used. Is it perfect? No, but it's close in my opinion!

The Mighty Mouse gets by on the scroll ball. That's it. As the article said, Apple did something different just for the sake of being different. That's something I, as a longtime Mac user, do not expect from Apple.

It looks nice, but mice are made for using, not ogling. The psuedo-button is simply inferior to traditional mice as far as usability goes. I've been afraid that Apple was going the style-over-substance route ever since the first iPod. For the most part, Apple has succeeded in making stylish products that are ALSO solid and functional. But the Mighty Mouse is just style. I really hope it's an isolated thing and not indicative of Apple's new design philosophy.

I have to disagree with the article about mice in general, though. Personally, I've always found Apple's mice very comfortable. The so-called ergonomic mice on the market give me arm pains, because they force me to move my entire hand with the mouse, all the way from the elbow or shoulder, instead of from just my knuckles or wrist. A simple, smooth, symmetrical mouse is perfect, IMO.


I agree with most of the article, especially the gaming bit. Apple has lost sight of this market. When Jobs came back to Apple in '97, he made a big deal about courting game developers. And Apple made some good progress within a few years. Then they kindasorta forgot. Great.

Apple also continually "forgets" the low-end market. Remember when you could get a COMPLETE Mac system for $800? Last year, Apple finally remembered this market and released the Mac Mini, only to prompty forget about it again when they released the Intel Mac Mini, which is full of all sorts of bells and whistles that have no place in an entry-level machine. The result was that the cost of entry to the Mac world went up 20% overnight. Stupid!

These two things (games and entry-level hardware) combine to make Apple very unattractive to kids (and more importantly, parents). When Apple released the original CRT iMac, it was like a dream for parents. Simple, affordable (for the time), and kid-friendly. Today's offerings just don't stack up. The iMac is expensive; the Mini is a nightmare for a new computer user to even buy, let alone set up. And none of Apple's machines are what I'd call kid-friendly. More like yuppy-friendly.

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Guest wrote:
Ñ—Que? Jonathon Jobs? Do you maybe, just maybe, just mean Steve Jobs?

<Checking Jonkun227's forehead for temperature>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ive

Connect the dots, Guest. I have faith that you can figure it out. Perhaps a "TomKat" or "Bennifer" style reference would have made more sense to you. Does Stevathan deliver the message?

The problem is that, to Steve and Jonathan, pretty is more important than functional. Another big clue to that end is their refusal to do an iPod with a user changeable battery. Battery dead? Just swap it out for your spare. No, that's not an option because then we'd have one of those unsightly battery covers. The horror.

Same issue with the buttons. One is apparently prettier than two. Either that or they think we're all morons who can't manage to keep two buttons straight in our limited minds.


Two-finger tap on the trackpad? Are you serious? WORKAROUNDS ARE NOT SOLUTIONS. That's just as asinine as a two-button mouse that doesn't actually have two buttons. "It's okay! All you have to do is lift your index finger every time you want to right-click." I thought that the retarded

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wordnet.princeton.edu wrote:
Retarded: relatively slow in mental or emotional or physical development

logic of the Mighty Mouse design had been sufficiently beat. Apparently not, since a two-finger tap on the trackpad (REALLY, REALLY, REALLY GREAT FOR THOSE TIMES WHEN YOU NEED TO BE CERTAIN YOU'RE CLICKING WITHOUT MOVING THE POINTER) seems like a good idea. There's a reason most of us don't like trackpads in the first place: They're terribly imprecise and inefficient. It's like going back to kindergarten/preschool size crayons when for years you've been using a precise brush or drafting pencil. (Or do you think drafters should use 1/2" wide crayons for their drawings?) But I like the trackpad better than the trackball or the eraser tip thing. So among the built-in options on a laptop it's the best I've seen. So why make it worse by only providing a single button? And, on certain models, only one ctl key modifier to access contextual menus.

I just don't get it. Why reinvent the wheel? Do you understand what that means?

Since the invention of the wheel countless millennia ago, many improvements have been made. The spoked wheel is arguably the most significant development. But it's still a wheel. It hasn't been reinvented.

I'm sure everyone here has heard the satirical piece titled "If Microsoft Made Cars." Supposedly (maybe truthfully, I just haven't researched it) Bill Gates once said that if Microsoft made cars that we would have flying cars by now. The piece ridicules the concept, saying that we would crash our cars every day, a dialog box would ask "are you sure you want to brake?", etc.

I would submit that if Apple made cars, we would have an incredibly attractively styled car with a powerful engine and refreshingly intuitive interface. There would be a range of unexpected features. It would have not only a sweet sound system, but a full entertainment system.

And octagonal tyres. (nod to Ive) Maybe heptadecagonal, just to be different. (nod to Jobs)

You see, the wheel just isn't good enough. It lacks a certain appeal. So Apple would reinvent the wheel and we'd end up with something equivalent to the mighty mouse. Innovative? I suppose. Better? Not even close. (Do you really think the Mighty Mouse is the first with a trackball?)

What would follow is all the gearheads make fun of the new car without ever trying it, Ford copies half the innovative features 5 or 6 years later, and every Apple fanatic raves about the new tires, while the Mac apologists say that they're "good enough", even if they do cause tremendous stress to the muscles and joints of the driver and passengers.

"There's a tiny speaker in the mouse that adds to the scrolling experience."
"But the bumpy ride really emphasizes the bass!"


- Jon

It's simple. The mighty mouse isn't for you. It's for me!

Your hands grew to be twisted by poor mouse design. I started on one button mice, and so I hold it with my thumb and middle finger. Thus my pointer finger falls on the right as God intended. You can't do this because Microsoft has made your hand twisted and evil.

A normal click has your finger on the RIGHT side of the button. When Microsoft decided to be original by having two buttons, the programmer in charge was left handed, so his pointer finger fell on the left, and he made left clicking the "normal" click. This forced all righties to twist their palms into unnatural shapes in order to get their pointer fingers on to the left buttons, and some of them grew claws and things that made their hands unable to hold normal mice.

So Apple had to build mice that worked for both normal people and monsters. Those people don't know what Microsoft has done to them, - they are sort of like the ghosts in "the sixth sense". So it is up to the self-aware to switch the mouse so that the right button is the normal click. (I use the left button for Expos�¹, and haven't decided what to do with the side squeeze yet.)

The first time I tried the Mighty Mouse, it felt odd to me, but in a day or so it became perfectly natural. I've had to use windows off and on for years, and the mouse just never quite feels right.

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algr wrote:
It's simple. The mighty mouse isn't for you. It's for me!

Your hands grew to be twisted by poor mouse design. I started on one button mice, and so I hold it with my thumb and middle finger. Thus my pointer finger falls on the right as God intended. You can't do this because Microsoft has made your hand twisted and evil.

A normal click has your finger on the RIGHT side of the button. When Microsoft decided to be original by having two buttons, the programmer in charge was left handed, so his pointer finger fell on the left, and he made left clicking the "normal" click. This forced all righties to twist their palms into unnatural shapes in order to get their pointer fingers on to the left buttons, and some of them grew claws and things that made their hands unable to hold normal mice.

So Apple had to build mice that worked for both normal people and monsters. Those people don't know what Microsoft has done to them, - they are sort of like the ghosts in "the sixth sense". So it is up to the self-aware to switch the mouse so that the right button is the normal click. (I use the left button for Expos�¹, and haven't decided what to do with the side squeeze yet.)

The first time I tried the Mighty Mouse, it felt odd to me, but in a day or so it became perfectly natural. I've had to use windows off and on for years, and the mouse just never quite feels right.

I honestly can't tell if you're serious. Nor can I tell to whom you are speaking.

My hands have never had a problem finding or avoiding buttons on mice as necessary, with the sole exception of the mighty mouse: in order to lift and reposition the mouse when I've moused too far I have to squeeze the side buttons because there isn't an accessible portion of the base that isn't a button. Great design!

Claws? Microsoft mouse? Sorry. I've been using Logitech for years. No trouble at all. No deformities. No RSI. Just productive use of multiple buttons without dogmatic beliefs of evils of multiple buttons.


- Jon

I thought I'd take the "my opinion is the only possible one" role myself this time.

I've had some strange conversations here with people who couldn't even accept the possibility that my mom might be better off web surfing with a one button mouse, and was convinced that every last single button mouse was going into the garbage the day the Mac was brought home, despite my attempts to tell him that I know no one in real life who has bought, or seems to want, a two button mouse.

We boiled it down to a question of when is choice good, and when is it bad? And it seems that many people assume that only choices that Microsoft offers are good ones.

I feel that things should default to what a very basic user needs, because more advanced users can choose to add the complexity they want, but new users probably can't figure out how to get rid of options that are just confusing them. So I think that shipping macs with a one button mouse was a good idea, and having the Mighty Mouse default to both sides doing "left click" would be an even better one.

And what is so hard about shift clicking, anyway? It seems easier to me then reaching my finger way over there, and shift click gives you more options.

The point is that it ISN'T an option. I can select processor speeds, amount of RAM, size of hard drive, a whole range of software to be preinstalled, etc., but I have no choice when it comes to the mouse. I have to buy the Mighty mouse with every desktop except the Mac Mini, whether I want one or not. I don't have the option of a better mouse or no mouse when I buy an iMac or PowerMac, and there are absolutely no options when buying a PowerBook/iBook/MacBook/MacBook Pro.

I'm sorry if you don't understand the difference between a right click and a click with a modifier in terms of efficiency. As I mentioned before, I work two jobs, and spend roughly 12 hours a day, sometimes more, in the Adobe Creative Suite. Having two buttons is great. The difference when I sit down to a computer that is crippled with a single button mouse is remarkable. I know the keyboard modifiers. I'm forced to use them on my PowerBook regularly. They are much slower in production use. Surfing the web it's not much different. Your mom probably wouldn't care.

Last I checked there is a large percentage of Mac users who work in CS/CS2, and who could appreciate the extra functionality. But it's not available with the notebooks and those of us who don't like it in the mighty mouse have to buy twice to get one that we like.


I realize that your "only opinion" comment was directed at me, but consider the implication if you applied it to Steve Jobs instead. More accurately it would be "my opinion is the only one that is available."


I also never suggested that single button mice should be thrown away. Hell, if anybody wants a few extras just let me know. We have a drawer full of them at work. Apple should absolutely continue to sell it. Just make it a selection when you order the Mac. "160 gig or 250 gig? 1 gig, 2 gigs, or 3 gigs? Single button mouse or non-retarded two button mouse?" See, it's really quite simple.

On the contrary, I am very specifically arguing that only one option/opinion is the very problem with Apple's offerings. I'm saying that there should be better solutions for those of us who don't fear two buttons simply because Microsoft has offerings with two buttons.

North Koreans eat rice and Iraqis pray. But just because I'm opposed to their political actions doesn't mean I refuse to eat rice or pray. (And, as long as we're analyzing your logic, North Koreans didn't invent rice and Iraqis didn't invent prayer.)


- Jon

Some of what I said was reviving the old discussion, and wasn't aimed at you.

Choice:

You don't have a choice about many things. You must buy at least SOME Apple ram, even if you want to add your own. You must buy a hard drive, the case, and the power supply they provide. You must have firewire. You must have a mighty mouse. But you don't have to USE any of those things if you find them inappropriate for your needs.

The people who I described as not having choice are the windows users who MUST use two button mice. I know all about UI efficiency, but you must not assume that you are a typical user. You are clearly a power user, and in a sense, no one is truly 'typical' anyway.

Basic users:

Not everyone is a graphic designer - even on the Mac side. Many of the people I know with computers are school teachers who just write papers and surf the web. My mom is no fool, but she was brought up in a time and place where an electric iron was just about the most sophisticated technology she ever used. So things that are second nature to us are hard for her.

I've watched carefully what she does with a computer and what problems she has. She has to think carefully to recognize the difference between a word processor and a finder window. And then she goes for weeks without using the computer, and forgets all the details. She won't notice what side of the mouse her finger is on when she is trying to find some button on the screen. There are a lot of computer users like her, and Macs need to work for people like her, as well as us.

Power users:

When I use Photoshop, I keep my left hand over the shift/control/option/apple keys and thus have instant access to a dozen tools while hardly even thinking about them. I can't imagine using Photoshop without my left hand on the keyboard. What does right clicking do? Just one thing - whatever control click does. Given that I need all the other key commands anyway, I fail to see how a second control click on the mouse is going to make anything faster. It is redundant, and it is too inconsistent between modes or programs to ever be intuitive, so I switched it (left click actually) to something I'll always need and will always be the same.

By comparison, the mouse wheel is a huge productivity boost because it does something unique - it lets you scroll windows without taking your focus off of whatever detail in the window you are working with. THAT is useful. You may not agree, but thanks to Apple's decisions the three of us can each use our macs in the way we like.

Although I guess I'll agree that laptops ought to have a little second mouse button, but it should default to single click on both sides, unless the user sets it to do something different.